Yitzchak Yaakov Kollel Boker Gemera Bava Metzia Neemanus Baal Hamkeach mm 6 shiur 4
- Rabbi Zvi Sobolofsky
- Date:
-
Series:
BCBM
Venue: Cong. Bnai Yeshurun (Teaneck, NJ)
Gemara: - Duration: 32 min
1 comment Leave a Comment
Author: False == 1 ? Anonymous : REUVEN DAVIS &##44;
<p><em>These notes are based on my understanding of the shiur.</em></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">1. Belila Ava Shenisbashela (Thick dough that was cooked)</span></span></strong></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Rabeeinu Tam – there are two ways to be chiyuv in chalah:</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Belila Ava (even if nishbashela) e.g. doughnut, kreplach, wonton, lokshon </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Baked (even if belila rakka) e.g. cake</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 18pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">* According to Tosafos in R”T these are both called lechem and you would make hamotei</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">However for a technical reason you would not make hamotzi on lokshon because it does not have tzuras lechem</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Also on doughnuts etc. you would not make hamotzei because they would be pas haba bekisnin, unless you eat it derech kevias seudah.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 18pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">* According to Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah in Rabeeinu Tam these are called an “Isah” which is enough to mechiav in Challah but not called lechem.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>One would not say Hamotei on them at all</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Rash and Ramban and others disagree with Rabeeinu Tam:</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">It must be baked to be chiyav in challah</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Belila Ava shenisbashela is potur from challah</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">In Hilchos Challah, Shulchan Aruch holds like Rash and Ramban.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Shach says that one should separate challah without berocho by belila ava shenisbashela.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">In Hilchos Berochos some poskim say that we should avoid eating these things outside a meal to choshesh for R”T.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">In Hilchos Bishul Akum we assume like the Rema that pas haba bekisnin (cookies and cakes) are included in pas akum not bishul akum since if eaten derech kevias seudah we make hamotzei (and we have the kullah of pas palter)</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">A belila ava shenisbashela (e.g. doughnuts) fall into the machlokes Rabeeinu Tam and others.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However even if they are not called lechem and they are included in bishul akum we would have the heter of bishul akum – this heter would work even during asseres yemei teshuvah unlike the heter of pas palter.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">2. Belila Rakka sheneefah (Soft dough that is baked)</span></span></strong></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Is chayav in challah according to Rabeeinu Tam and Rash.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">However the Ramban holds that a belila rakka is potur from challah</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Shulchan Aruch poskins like Rabeeinu Tam and Rash</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">(There are some bakeries that are not mafrish challah on cakes like Ramban.)</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">3. Cookies</span></span></strong></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">These are a belilah avah and baked so should be chayav in challah according to everyone.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">However the Aruch Hashulchan (also Rabbenu Yonah in Berochos) says that since eaten as a snack do not take challah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">This is a daas yachid.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">4. Maaseh Ilfas (baked in a frying pan)</span></span></strong></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">When I bake the flour and water, is a tanur required (Reish Lakish) or even in a frying pan (Rabbi Yochanan), to be chayav in challah?</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Machlokes Rabbi Yochanan and Reish Lakish in Pesochim Perek 2 daf 37</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Rabeeinu Tam explains leshitaso that the whole machlokes is by belila rakka (not called a lisha). Since you need an afiah, do you need afiah betanur.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Rash / Ramban learn that no difference between belila rakka and belila ava.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Most poskim hold like Rabbi Yochanan</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">(Rabbeinu Chananel poskins like R”L that need afiah btanar)</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">5. Tanur Echad – One Oven</span></span></strong></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">If take flour and cook it and then bake it (e.g bagel), R’ Yehuda says that potur from challah because require “tanur echad” like loshon of the posuk in Bechukosai.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Other tannaim argue and so hold almost all rishonim.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">We do not poskin like R’ Yehuda and the berocho on beigals in hamotzei.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">They are also included in pas regarding pas akum</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><strong style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">6. Losing the Shem Lechem</span></span></strong></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Tosafos Berachos on sugia of Chavitza discusses whether something can lose its “shem lechem”.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">If take bread and bread into breadcrumbs – it is lechem gamur.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Bishul can only revoke the “shem lechem” if the bread is less than a k’zais</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Arial;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">-<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">If you add other ingredients (where not derech bishul), it loses “shem lechem” if it is less than a k’zais and not form of bread.</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Deep frying is like bishul</span></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Shallow frying is a machlokes in kol hatorah.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>French toast since it is more than a kezayis is certainly hamotzei.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>However matzo brie each piece is less than a kezayis and does not have the form of bread and it would fall into this machlokes.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The Mishna Berurah advises to eat it in the middle of a meal.</span></span></p> <p> <p> </p> </p>